Is there a more overrated writer than Tolkien? The eagles is a legitimate plot hole, the ""debunk"" comes from an addition he made years later. Literally JK Rowling tier revisionism. Why is Tolkien seen as infallible?
Is there a more overrated writer than Tolkien? The eagles is a legitimate plot hole...
Woah, ur ... rite !! :o
why didn't the small group explicitly relying on stealth just fly across the skies on giant fucking eagles
Why is this such a common question to begin with
if the eagles could just fly to mordor it wouldnt be a good story, right?
you know the point offiction right?
Wtf there were Naz'ghul monsters patrolling the skies, they would have just killed the eagles. Case closed
The eagles were perfectly fine flying there at the end of the movie
b-but the nazgul
We LITERALLY see them killing the lizard dragons so this argument is bullshit
At the very sign of trouble, all of Mordor million strong hordes would have ganged up on the Eagles, not just the Nazgul
Why is Tolkien seen as infallible?
Because nobody has done it better.
eagles can fly
Naz'ghul can fly
Give up. I love Tolkien too, but it IS a plot hole. LotR is gigantic artistic endeavour that took years to complete and took a scholar of the caliber of Tolkien to do it, and it's damn near perfect, but it isn't. Tolkien was only human.
Nazgul are seen bitched by the eagles and by Gandalf the White. Gandalf the White riding an eagle would... lose?
They literally tumble & spin over eachother in the air. Anyone mounting an eagle engaged-in-combat with a Nazgul would fall off & plummet to their death
The Nazgul get BTFO by eagles in the film
bad because….plotholes
woah, so smart this guy
would fall off & plummet to their death
including the Nazgul? Reminder the Nazgul are the wraiths, not the dragons.
Galdalf could beam light in their faces and clear a path, as established in the movie, so they wouldn't even need to engage.
Just hold on tight bro
The eagles aren't carrying the ring bearer at the end of the movie. The ring was smartly being carried by a stealthy hobbit nowhere near the battle, and then tossed into a volcano, routing the enemy that was winning their fight against the humans.
You could just as easily and more effectively have a separate eagle with the ring bearer fly in from behind while the rest are engaging in diversion.
The argument that you can't use eagles because of Nazgul is like saying you can't use drones because the other side also has them. It's sheer nonsensical fanboyism.
Of course, the eagles could fly across the continent and get to Mordor no problem without anyone taking notice and then just pull a quick diversion at the gate and they'd be out before anyone could realize what happened.
Just like they came in undetected, yes.
In the Hobbit movies the orcs have plenty of big bats, Sauronsman has a huge flock of crows in lotr. Also orcs can shoot them with arrows.
They're the only complication that directly impacts the eagles supposed advantage
In the Hobbit movies the orcs have plenty of big bats
Not in the LotR books or movies.
Sauronsman has a huge flock of crows in lotr.
Didn't prevent the eagles from swooping in his home base and rescuing Galdalf from under his nose.
orcs can shoot them with arrows.
Can't shoot a normal eagle with a bow when it's flying high much less a LotR sentient eagle.
They're the only complication
And they are seen being made easy work by the eagles, so not being much of a problem after all.
This is established, as opposed to hypothesized (as many of the fanboy replies here are).
It's not a plot hole in the slightest, you're just an irredeemable moron.
Why didn't they just build a giant ramp and skateboard the ring into Mordor?
Just another point about the eagles. In the Silmarillion, the eagles fight actual DRAGONS and win. That's how powerful they are ESTABLISHED (as opposed to hypothesized) to be.
The Nazgul mounts in the books aren't dragons, because the dragons are extinct by the Third Age. Jackson made them lizard-like because he thought it'd look cool (and it does). But in the books they are more like deformed, giant carrion birds, so they'd be even less of a challenge for eagles, who could and have taken on dragons, dragons as in Smaug! This is what the powerful level of the eagles is ESTABLISHED to be, so get out of here with bats and arrows. Tolkien wrote himself into a corner here.
He's great but I think you really need to study medieval literature preferably in the original language to truly get him especially beyond just LOTR and the Hobbit
Refute any of the points being made in the thread, then, retard.
Sauron has a laserbeam eye and he makes anyone he looks at too hard cum painfully. Eagles would crash and cause 911 in Mordor.
That's in the movie
The guy was a necromancer, I am sure he could conjure up some big baseball bat and whack the birds out of the park.
maybe the answer has something to do with the GIANT DEMONIC EYE WITH MENTAL/SOUL DOMINION POWERS
rage quits into irrelevant, schizo babble
I accept your surrender.
What's in it for the eagles retard? The eagles are sentient and their own race and not at all allies with humans. The eagles used to come down from the mountains to eat the men of the anduin vale's livestock and the men would shoot them and kill them with yew bows. The eagles were not even chill with humans let alone allies, and you're asking them to go risk their lives on a suicide mission. The motivation isn't even there for them to do it, let alone the fact they wouldn't be able to pull it off for reasons that have already been discussed to death for decades now
eagles can take on smaug
why do u tell lies
No, I read eagles can safely be beamed by the eye that burns out your entire nervous system with its sheer evil for up to 8 hours a day without lasting negative consequence. I've exposed mine to this every day for a year and they're fine.
Your "point" is made null and void the second the eagles join humans in the fight against Sauron. You can't say they are aloof and detached from human affairs when they literally join the War of the Ring.
What is the War of Wrath
In the skies above Angband, they confronted the dragons, and Eärendil himself slew their captain, the mighty Ancalagon the Black,
Ancalagon, often titled "The Black", was the greatest of all winged dragons.
Retarded ignorant imbecile.
They join in the last alliance of all the free races when they have an army at the black gates. The "plot hole" you're implying is that they should have flown the ring straight into mordor by themselves right after the council of elrond, when no one outside of gondor or Rivendell was even aware there was a war or that sauron was back. This has been discussed to death and it's been conclusively decided you're side is retarded and the argument has been put to rest. Go back to reading GoT and stop concern trolling that you've read tolkien
Lmao
Be a good fanboy an at least READ the material you're trying to fanboy for, before you embarass yourself any further.
He's not so great.
Smaug could kick his ass
the Eagles were perfectly fine flying into Sauron's Kingdom after Saurons and all of his soldiers and generals had been killed
Woah...
I sold some LOTR cards for a profit. The eagles didn't stand a chance
OP must be a libtard or leftoid
Except the eagles were already intervening in and working against Sauron well before the Battle of the Morannon. They rescued Gandalf from Isengard and again from Celebdil before they joined the war. They could have known about the Ring from Gandalf as soon as the rescue from Isengard (and before Rivendell) and possibly sooner. So the plothole is that they were already helping and set out to help humans since before Rivendell, and were established to be willing to go to the last consequences, even joining in the fighting, so why not do the logical thing and take the ring bearer there?
Sorry, retard, your argument is null and void.
Nah did you not watch the third movie when the eagles beat the shit out of the nazguls winged wraiths
Why didn't the allies just fly to Berlin, anon?
what is the debunk please?
from Gandalf
Or Galadriel, since they rescued Gandalf from Celebdil at her request. Was Galadriel also le aloof and neutral to human affairs? No, she was actively collaborating and on the side of men and against Sauron, just like the eagles.
Can't even shoot a normal eagle with that.
a thousands of uruks with bows and crossbows can
But Nazghul can fight with eagles on air faggot.
Gandalf had to bargained to be rescued and they didn't even take him all the way to where he wanted, they just dropped him off in rohan and he had to get a horse. And that's gandalfa Maia. You've proven my point how unmotivated they were to help about the war by the fact the dropped gandalf off at the bus station rather than take him all the way to Rivendell. The hobbit also firmly established that the men of the anduin vale drove them away with yew bows and the eagles feared them enough to stay away and stop stealing their sheep. That was just random farmers mind you, let alone a trained army, and these are THE SAME eagles in LotR, not distant past eagles from the silmarillion. It's firmly established they fear bows and arrows and sauron has an entire army in Mordor. This argument was settled decades ago, you lose. Have fun coping about my hobbit point you won't be able to counter.
Everyone saying the eagles did fine at the end is missing that they only did fine because Sauron was dead by the time the eagles arrive. Also, everyone here knocking Tolkien for the eagles and then talking about the movies is retarded. The movies were great films, but they missed a lot.
The eagles is a legitimate plot hole
no it isn't.
thousands
Sure, if you positioned them on the sides of Mount Doom -- which would be hard enough, since it is an active volcano and not all of it is equally climbable (so it would have weak spots) -- yes, I can see that making it hard for the eagles to close in or land on Mount Doom. So Tolkien could have done that and the story could have been about how to work around that specific problem. Which possibly wouldn't be as satisfying, but at least, he would have confronted the issue instead of ignoring it.
the whole point of this kind of stories is about the journey, how the hero will end up transformed by it and how that will make him able to face his demons/literal demons
"bro, just fast-travel to the final boss chamber lmao"
I seriously hope it's only zoomers who make this retarded arguments.
We LITERALLY see them killing the lizard dragons
we see them fight, but they do not win. When Frodo puts on the ring, we see a few of them going to the mountain, you tard.
Sorry, no matter how many walls of texts your work your tiny brain so hard to write, all of that is rendered null and void by the eagles actually joining in the battle.
I tried so hard, and got so far...
The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew," he said, "for they would think we were after their sheep. And at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat the goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains. "
This singlr passage establishes that 1: the eagles are not on good terms with men. 2: the eagles won't risk themselves for dwarves either. 3 and most important: THE EAGLES SEE BOWS AS A RISK. There goes OPs entire argument. Not replying to any more OP posts
They are made quick work of by the eagles. You also see their entire troop routed by Gandalf the White beaming light in their faces, so Gandalf riding one could easily clear a path for the others to fly straight to Mount Doom.
rendered null and void by the eagles actually joining in the battle
again, if you actually watch the movie, the Nazgul fly straight to Mount Doom without any issue from the eagles, despite the eagles attacking them
They are made quick work of by the eagles.
no they aren't, they clash with them and stop they plowing into the battle, but they're still going at eachother when frodo puts on the ring and they break off towards mount doom when he does.
This is the only honest argument and also the true explanation of why the eagles don't carry Frodo to Mount Doom. Everything else is retcon. People coming up with fancy reasons why the eagles just couldn't is laughable.
eagles won't risk themselves
do risk themselves
Oosh.
yeah if Gandalf could hop on one and charge (fly) ahead without being stopped at any point by a Nazgul. That's probably not going to work and is very risky.
Theoden didn't want to help Gondor at first but then changed his mind
what a massive plot hole zomg
Can't shoot a normal eagle with a bow when it's flying high much less a LotR sentient eagle.
Didn't bard shoot and kill smaug with a normal bow (albeit a magic arrow)? I can't recall anything from the books about his bow being some magical weapon of legend but its also been like 20 years since I read the hobbit.
Considering one hairy ragamuffin can use a bow to engage a dragon I'm fairly sure a million or so orcs firing even conservatively 300,000 arrows at a convocation of eagles would be pretty destructive.
The eagles are shown kicking kick their ass. It's one sided. If some Nazgul flee, it only proves my point. They are outmatched.
youtube.com
It is if your entire point were based on Theoden can't possibly help humans, he's le alooooooff.
british tolkien wrote the eagles would only enter the war late
BALD eagle mald about it till today
After the ring was wrekt, the nazgul pretty much had no purpose and left. The catharsis ends and we have an easy relaxing happy ending
Can't shoot a normal eagle with a bow when it's flying high much less a LotR sentient eagle.
Oops directly contradicted by the source. (And my trips) See quote
the nazgul didn't flee, they went after the ring when they sensed frodo putting it on, stop pretending to be retarded please.
Sam and Frodo disabled Sauron's anti-air defenses, but Hackson left it out of the movie
Yes, bows are effective weapons. And dragons and eagles are not invulnerable creatures in LotR. Legolas shoots a Nazgul "dragon" (actually a fell beast). So bows are a danger, if they are in range. But eagles can fly high out of range of arrows, that's what I meant. You could shoot one if in range, say, putting orc archers on the sides of Mount Doom. See
Addressed here: and here
What can you say against the evidence?
youtube.com
The only footage we have of altercations between eagles and fell beasts shows the fell beasts being easily defeated.
It's time to start asking the real questions. Why the FUCK didn't the eagles help put out the fires at Chernobyl
That doesn't address it though, that's just cope
You can't shoot an arrow from the ground into the atmosphere, retard. The only chance an orc would have would be when the eagles closed in, which would only have to happen in Mount Doom.
the Nazgul weren't fleeing because they were doomed, they were leaving battle to get literally the one thing they are destined to find. The fact that they were able to rapidly leave battle and fly full speed towards Mount Doom only proves that they weren't completely outmatched.
"arrows wouldn't be effective against eagles"
here's a direct quote from the lord of eagles saying arrows are effective against eagles
"okay well arrows WOULD be effective IF the orcs shot them I guess...but that doesn't count!"
cope
this is a huge plothole by tolkien
look at this scene jackson made up for the movie and not written by tolkien proves it
lmao
the lord of eagles
Alright fanboys. Gotta go to work. It was nice BTFOing you.
Tolkien wrote himself into a corner. When you establish eagles, you open the possibility of them taking the ring bearer to Mount Doom as the most logical choice. He chose to wave it off instead of exploring that possibility, because it would undermine Frodo's Hero's Journey. It is what it is. Cope. Seethe. Dilate.
Is there a more overrated writer than Tolkien?
Yes
would only have to happen in Mount Doom
*outside* of Mount Doom you mean, and if the Eagles flew straight to Mount Doom Sauron would have sent everything to stop them, and this is all even IF the eagles would want to risk that.
nice false flag.
Being retarded isnt cool.
This shit has been debunked time and time again, yet the same thread pops up every day, and it's equally enjoyable to scroll through everytime.
The eagles are literal demigods serving Manwë, King of the Valar, who explicitly told them to refrain from meddling in Middle Earth's affairs, because the last time the Valar intervened half the continent broke off and sank between the waves. Thus it would be against their explicit orders to help the Fellowship in any way.
Further, as sentient beings, the eagles would have killed Frodo and kept the ring for themselves the moment they took off. Even Gandalf refused the ring for fear of being seduced to keep it eventually, and that's coming from a guy whose patron deity was the literal Vala of mercy and compassion, not some half-feral predatory bird, who would definitely show less restraint when it came to the ring.
Then there's the whole thing with a fuckhuge army and AA and flying interceptor beasts between Rivendell and Mordor.
Lastly, Gwaihir only picked up Gandalf from Orthanc because the latter healed him from an AA wound once, so it was a personal favor towards Gandalf to get even.
Filmfags really are retarded.
the eagles could easily bypass armies of orcs and totally defeat the Nazgul
no, i have no way to prove how that's possible, but it just is ok
The real question is why didn't Sauron post at leasta couple orcs at the Mount Doom main entrance.
The eagles are servants of Manwe, dont be dumb. They are just random smart birds.
Because he went all in against Aragorn. He thought Aragorn wanted his Ring and his power. The thought that someone would relinquish power, destroying the Ring, never crossed his mind. Also the thought that a weak creature like a halfling could defeat him never crossed his mind because of his hubris. I take it as the moral of the story (or one of them). God sometimes empowers the weak to humiliate the strong.
fuck me, arent*
never crossed his mind
Because he is obsessed with, only thinks in terms of power, much like modern leftists.
they didnt even have to fly directly into mordor either, just fly to the point of danger and drop them off, still saving them months
Yes he wasn't that great. I like LOTR and the Silmarillion but people really overrate it
Because he went all in against Aragorn
Still silly. Say, he has 100 000 orcs at his disposal. Throw 99 998 against Aragorn while 2 remain at Mt. Doom. What difference would those 2 have made? And those should have been permanent guards anyway, like those red dudes at Buckingham. It didn't cost him anything to put some guys there and forget about them.
It never occurs to sauron that they would want to destroy the ring. His only assumption is that since it is a ring of power, they would attempt to use it to become more powerful and then defeat him with this new power.
Since the one vulnerability of mount doom is that you could use it to destroy the ring, and he couldn't fathom that someone might want to destroy it, it therefore isn't a vulnerability to his thinking, and doesn't need to be guarded.
Considering all that, the absolute most it would need is a guard rail to stop the dumbest of the orcs from falling into the lava but I doubt he gives a shit about that happening.
not only that but the ring is at it's most poweful at Mount Doom. It is nearly impossible to resist it's power when at the brink of destroying it.
Because the eagles don't interfere in human affairs (except when they do!).
implying an OCD-riddled micromanaging autist freak obsessed with order like Sauron wasn't at least a little bit paranoid about his sole weakness
Because Eru doesn't interfere in human affairs (except when he does!).
Yes, that would be more logical, but I think Sauron not even considering it drives the point of his hubris and power delusion home more effectively.
what's it gots in its pocketses?
Hobbits cannot skate because they don't wear shoes
Only sane LOTR fan in the thread. They’re so easy to rage bait
this and also
why didn't they just use the Ents against Sauraman from the beginning? Why not have the Ents at Helm's Deep? Why not bring the Ents against Mordor?
it's like people don't understand that these are sentient races with a negative view of men, and only help after they reluctantly decide that it's too important to sit out
Gandalf
IIRC, Gandalf was personally friends with the Eagles. I think in the books it might have even been Radaghast (the brown hippy wizard) who sent the eagle, I don't quite remember though.
Asking your friend
hey can I get a ride
is different than
hey can you fly this hobbit to a volcano guarded by an evil eye and thousands of orcs
Ive actually never thought of this. Tolkien really is a retard
Why didn't the Valar just come to Middle-Earth and easily btfod Sauron if that's what they would have done if Sauron won anyway?
Sauron wasn't exactly known for being a master strategist, Anon.
The war to end all wars which he had been wargaming on for like 1500 years consisted of a single giant zerg rush.
Why didn't Aragorn just lead remainder of the army from battle of pelanor fields to the black gate and goad sauron to sally his army out to fight it and draw saurons attention away while frodo sneaks in and destroys the ring
the valar weren't going to do shit, sending a handful of extremely nerfed maia in the form of the wizards was the most they were willing to do, if sauron wins then he wins.
Why didn't Putin just beeline to Kiev and depose Selensky?
the last time they did that the entire continent was destroyed physically
zoomers be like
uuuh old thing that everybody loves actually bad!
riveting take
boomers be like
no argument
super powerful immortal demi-god sent to defeat the forces of evil
abilities include...
turning his staff into a flashlight
fighting with a normal sword like a normal person
Lame as fuck. GRRM would never.
silent generation be like
who fuck cares about this fairy tale for kids?
I literally can't stand his boring shit either to read, or the shitty boring movies where literally nothing fucking happens. People who like his shit are literal fucking homos.
LOTR isn’t old, but more importantly, it literally doesn’t have any competition. Pirates is probably the closest thing, and Potter comes in third. The rest of fantasy media is garbage—like Willow or... Damsel, starring the Babushka from Stranger Things.
He could use his staff to light small fires in the book and he used it to start their campfires at night
DURRR Y KULDNT DEY JUST FLY DA EAGLES...
I don't know retards, why don't you look at the answers to the other 500 times you've asked this question?
Or just stop being brown.
Imagine being a bookfag and reading hundreds of pages of fucking dwarf songs and irrelevant shit to finally learn that the good guys win because Gollum spazzes out and falls into lava.
still needed pippin to sneak up and light the beacons
what a fucking jobber
I enjoy rereading it immensely because I know which parts to skip, much like how I fast forward when women talk in films
Why have these eagles anyway? Talking animals are so lame.
She looks better as a justed milf than when she tries to look her age. Should get breast implants too to complete the transformation.
that's just more hackson denethor bullshit, in the book they'd lit the beacons and been sending messengers to rohan.
They don't talk.
Did you miss the army of fucking orcs guarding it?
Or aragorns plan to draw them all out thats clearly demonstrated so even stupid children could understand.
Bitch looks like 50
They do
And on the other hand Sadie Sink looks amazing. Funny how that works?
oh fuck off you insufferable, friendless, pathologically-contrarian retarded faggot.
itt and all the threads about this before & after: autists slapfighting and trying to prove how smart they are with either lore or strategic nerd knowledge when the whole thing is just the good old Hero's Journey archetype and anyone not autistic can easily see it
Because the last time they intervened on behalf of the free peoples of Middle Earth (the War of Wrath), the fighting was so cataclysmic that the entire northwestern quarter of Middle Earth broke off and sunk between the waves. The Valar going to Middle Earth to stop Sauron would be akin to dropping the Tsar Bomba on some flyover state smalltown to drive away its highschool drug dealers. Hence their decision to stay out of it this time and only assist indirectly, e. g. by sending the Istari as leaders and counsellors. AFAIK Gandalf even had direct orders to not use his tremendous powers offensively, which is why he only casts lame-ass defensive spells like in the "You shall not pass!" scene, or when he shines his flashlight at the Nazgul.
Everyone is focused on the Eagle physical capabilities but that's the wrong angle.
The Ring corrupts, as we saw with Boromir, so if the eagles were around it long enough they would steal it and no one could stop them save maybe Gandalf (who also wasn't willing to handle the ring for fear of corruption), and imagine an eagle getting the one Ring, that's (almost?) a bigger problem than Sauron getting it back.
Also, the eagles are basically demigods who can't be bothered by anyone other than fellow demigods like Gandalf, so asking them to do a risky task on behalf of men is outside their purview.
Once the ring was destroyed, it would make sense for them to be willing to save the insignificant being who managed to complete such a mighty feat.
It might not have been fully covered in the original text, but based on established lore, it still makes sense that the eagles weren't a viable option.
gets killed by a single hoomie
lol yeah sure
"He" wasn't a writer, "he" was a propagandist. If you like any of his garbage you're retarded
propagandist
Wut? Propagandist about what? Smoking pipe?
dont you have a subreddit to power trip on, faggot?
b-but the eagles couldn't fly into mordor without getting attacked
So launch a diversionary attack on mordor at the same time. That's what they ended up doing anyways.
Except this time it would have a good chance of working. Send a couple hobbits to carry the ring and some elves to murder them and throw them in the lava if they can't get the job done. Now you don't have to depend on luck / divine intervention at the end.
And if they launched this attack early enough their forces wouldn't be so depleted from battles. Might still have the invincible ghost army at your disposal. Or even Sauronman's army if you can convince him this plan is viable. He mainly joined Sauron because he felt he was undefeatable.
The demigod wizard with the power of a level 1 cantrip.
keyed
by design, yes.
The gods have a sense of humour.
The problem is not Tolkien but the "adults" taking childstories way too seriously
t. ass mad atheist leftist
Now you don't have to depend on luck / divine intervention at the end.
Fucking wizard. You defy the big E himself with this speak and then you say you wont DEPEND on intervention? With this plan you are designing for the ring to fall into the hands of the dark lord, when your plan is predicated on deception and murder. Cut the fucking pipeweed for five god damned hours before you come to these meetings again, Dalabar the Dank.
Tolkien wanted fairytales to be accessible to adults, and the monkey paw curls. He spins in his grave.
This is also correct. The Hobbit and LOTR were written for children. Literally and openly. Christian books for children. They even have prefixes before each chapter than no one important dies.