Why was Vader a cuck in A New Hope? I thought he was the Vice Emperor of the Galaxy

Why was Vader a cuck in A New Hope? I thought he was the Vice Emperor of the Galaxy.

He's in the bad boy corner for *some bullshit Lucas never thought of from the EU* so that's why they treat him like dirt

He killed Watto and felt bad enough to ask for a demotion

He was a general who would walk in the troops to make sure jobs were completed. But he was special because he had the force, which was why the emperor liked him. This was changed and retconned in the prequels by the hack known as George Lucas. There are only 3 Star Wars movies. The rest is fan fiction.

Fun fafct:, in French, he is called "Dark Vador"

there are no political shenanigans in the Empires top rank

Killing all the Jedi made Imperial officers lose all respect for any Force users including Vader himself.

The Emperor was the only exception.

Mainly a shadow leader that no-one really knew why he was in the position he was in. If they knew he was Anakin they'd probably respect the fuck out of him, but the Hero they knew "died" Vader is just some emperor stooge to them with a weird religion. It's like having a Muslim Warrior in the midst of a Christian Crusade hall and wondering who the fuck that guy is and why is he here.

He was always just an attack dog

He was just playing along with the protocol but had to choke out that guy for a bit for acting too fresh.
Vader still respects protocol and the chain of command and Tarkin was in charge of that facility and the operations there and it's one thing to choke out some uppity officer and another to undermine the person in charge of the entire Death Star.

I thought it is very clear from the scene that Vader is just fucking around and allowing them to play out their meeting and he seems more like an outside observer just sent there to monitor stuff.

The original idea is clearly that Vader is an enforcer henchman, he's not in charge, that's why he takes part in fights and spaceship battles while the moffs sit back in their office. Empire and Jedi retconned that to him being the emperor's deputy commanding fleets.

he wasnt

The worst sin of the prequels was turning Vader into Jesus.

The Emperor wasn't even a originally sith. He was a weak figurehead manipulated by people Tarkin.

Assistant Vice Emperor Executive Producer to the Emperor of the Galaxy

Do you have a scholarly, snopes-verified, peer-reviewed source for that?

The original novelization of "A New Hope," where Palpatine is described as a weak-willed figure controlled by the Imperial bureaucracy.

Yeah the original idea was that he's some beauroratic political figure. The Sith didn't exist yet as an idea, Darth Vader was just a jedi who turned bad.

in the early Star Wars script floating around, the Emperor is a guy with a fu manchu mustache like Ming the Merciless, who is on the Death Star when it blows up.

He was originally just a goon and not the Empreror's apprentice. Lucas pretty much pulled shit out of his ass all the while making the movies.

He wasn't a Force user originally, and he wasn't a Sith even in RotJ. Lucas changed him into a Sith and "Darth Sidious" in TPM.

The term "Sith" and "Lord of the Sith" did exist. It just that it didn't apply to the Emperor. Also Obi-Wan didn't lie. Vader was originally a separate character from Anakon.

Novelizations were always garbage tier slop made to get extra money from rubes, not relevant in any other way

stfu Mike

They are rellevant in that shows Lucas' intent. We also have the rough drafts. He's referred as Cos Dashit, funny enough.

Why was Vader a cuck in A New Hope? I thought he was the Vice Emperor of the Galaxy

You thought wrong. There's nothing in the OT that should give you that idea. As Lucas once said: "There is a complex relationship between the military in the Empire and the sort of more mystical power in the Empire, which is basically the Emperor and Vader. I went out of my way not to create hierarchies. The only real hierarchy is the Emperor. Everybody is afraid of the Emperor, nobody will cross the Emperor, and the Emperor has final word on everything. But Vader, as his assistant, even though he’s very powerful, strong and scary, is one of the underlings of the Emperor and therefore is pretty much on an equal scale of the highest level of underlings."

They are rellevant in that shows Lucas' intent

No, they are not. The novelizations are just some writers' interpretation of Lucas's movies. Save for a couple of tidbits here and there that are known to have come from Lucas himself (either directly or from his scripts), they don't represent Lucas' views.

Truth is that Vader was a pussy while he was only there as the Emperors right hand man while Tarkin was in charge of running shit and doesn't have time babysitting some robofaggot with Mommy issues!!!FACT!!!

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Retarded shit

Dumbass, Lucas didn't have it all figures out from the beginning like he claims. You believe his lies. Read the original scripts before talking shit.

...

The lucasfag is here

....

......

........

Retarded shit

cope and seethe

meltie

youtu.be/xyVzIhtRRHY?si=dQUD_Rltce5a8jWz

!!!FACT!!!

As Lucas once said

Lucas didn't need to say it. He made it pretty implicit in the movies. Only losers with 2 brain cells cry about things not being consistent with the fanfic they made up in their heads

.;.;

youtube.com/shorts/UeDOU_JEhPM

!!!FACT!!!

As far as those officers are concerned the Jedi were a bunch of traitorous cultists who tried to overthrow the republic, and Darth Vader is the last survivor of that cult.

but the emperor

Never shown to use his powers in public. They probably think he's just a normal guy.

Dude, you're signing your memes now?
From a friend to a friend: you're approaching the level of the ice cream faggot.

As far as those officers are concerned the Jedi were a bunch of traitorous cultists who tried to overthrow the republic, and Darth Vader is the last survivor of that cult.

>but the emperor

Never shown to use his powers in public. They probably think he's just a normal guy.

I know it's a retcon but he was also disfigured after 4 Jedi tried to arrest him with no evidence other than Anakin telling Mace he MIGHT be a Sith Lord.

Funny how Windu was soo quick to believe Anakin when outright saying he didn't trust him earlier.

So based on appearances it looks like Windu and the Jedi were looking to take over, entering and threatening the Chancellor with imprisonment based on hearsay from someone who might have been lying to regain Windu's trust and the hope that he'd be given the rank of Master!!!FACT!!!

Dude, you're signing your memes now?

From a friend to a friend: you're approaching the level of the ice cream faggot.

I've been doing that for a long time if it's a photoshop, sorry if that bothers you but my unrelenting (undiagnosed but pretty obvious) autism has no bounds!!!FACT!!!

I'm pretty sure the first draft of ANH opening crawl mentioned Sith Lords in relation to Vader and Darth Sidious. I don't remember whether the latter was meant to be the Emperor though

Vader, at this point, doesn't have an official rank. He's more a representative of Palpatine than anything else. In ANH, he's there to destroy the rebels and to ensure that Palpatine's interests are being maintained. He's not there to take charge and lead, though he likely could if he determined it was necessary.

The Sith didn't exist yet as an idea, Darth Vader was just a jedi who turned bad.

BS. Darth Vader always was from the beginning a fallen Jedi turned Sith Lord

During the film, sure. But in the earliest drafts, Darth Vader wasn't even a force user but an Imperial general.

Because it was retconned. Vader was originally meant to be a random SS officer equivalent. His popularity basically revived him and gave him the huge role he got.

Nah that's just the NAME Darth Vader. Darth Vader the character didn't really exist until the 2nd draft (although technically there's 2 Sith lords in the rough draft that kinda merge together and become Darth Vader.) I mean the character in the rough draft that's closest to the final Vader character is Kane Starkiller, Annikin's tragic cyborg Jedi father who's "more machine than man" although going into that whole thing and how Kane eventually evolved into Vader will take ages cause there's like 4 distinct drafts and I don't feel like diving into it right now.

But anyway this is totally wrong:

The Sith didn't exist yet as an idea,

Yes they did? They're literally in the rough draft. Here's the opening crawl from the rough draft mentioning the "Knights of Sith." It's just completely wrong. Question: have YOU actually read the scripts yourself? Or are you just going off the random facts you've read online? Because I can't tell if you're the same guy but whoever's talking about the early scripts on here is getting the details slightly wrong and is merging a bunch of different drafts together incorrectly into one big soupy mess

I thought he was the Vice Emperor of the Galaxy.

No, he was always just an enforcer for Palpatine. Tarkin was supreme military commander.

Nah Vader was the main villain of the movie from the 2nd draft onwards (the first script - the rough/first draft - is different but if we go into that we'll be here all day.) It's why Lucas had him survive at the end from the 3rd draft onwards. Tarkin was actually a really late addition, only being created in the 4th and final draft.

who cares or is talking about earliest drafts? darth vader didn't even exist in the earliest draft. the earliest drafts evolved into the latest drafts, which evolved into the final draft which was turned into scripts and finally turned into a movie

Vader definitely isn't the main villain, he's a subordinate to Tarkin in ANH and he's treated as middle management.

what a stupid zoomer take. if you're not the highest rank at all times from the day you're born, you're a cuck? now your generation's unreliability at work makes a shitload of sense, you're all ashamed of yourselves.

Nah he is - who gets the big reveal in the opening scene? Who gets to have a lightsaber duel at the end of the 2nd act? Who's actually involved in the Death Star battle. Meanwhile Tarkin hangs around a bunch of conference rooms all film. Oh yeah Vader's taking orders from him but even in the shooting script (and in the movie itself) he's described as the "right hand of the Emperor" when introduced, not Tarkin

And anyway - if you read through the scripts the 3rd draft is fascinating cause it's the first script with ALL the elements of A New Hope in it except it's got alternate dialogue and scenes and a couple of major differences. One of which is that Tarkin didn't exist yet making Vader the only villain and it's literally the same story.

Vader, at this point, doesn't have an official rank. He's more a representative of Palpatine than anything else. In ANH, he's there to destroy the rebels and to ensure that Palpatine's interests are being maintained. He's not there to take charge and lead, though he likely could if he determined it was necessary.

You also have to keep in mind that Vader doesn't need to be in the same room to choke someone to death!!!FACT!!!

He was the emperor’s attack dog in the first movie
He didn’t become “second in command” until empire strikes back

He didn’t become “second in command” until empire strikes back

he's not second in command in empire either. he's still the emperor's attack dog and all of the empire's tool are at his disposal, including the military. just like in a new hope

Vader was a terrible commander of men, borderline incompetent in his wielding of sizable military assets, because he's, at the end of the day, a political appointee. He's a dumb muscle whose only talent is threatening and killing people.

Only in relation to Vader. Palpatine wasn't a Sith until TPM nor was the name "Darth Sidious" ever mentioned before that.

Vader was an independent Sith Lord hired as a mercensry type goon by the Empire in ANH. You know nothing.

Did you think he was a third, different kind of space wizard when you saw him shoot lighting from his hands?

Yes, that was literally what he originally was. An independent dark side user. He wasn't part of any Force "team" at that point. Vader was the only confirmed Sith.

or when Vader called him his master in Empire and both discuss the force, and how they could make luke an asset of *their* side

haters like to bend themselves backwards and ignore all the details lucas established in his movies in a pathetic attempt to pretend that everything was done on the fly. unfortunately for them, these movies are pretty well documented and what's always been on screen can't be refuted

Retard. See:
Lucas kept changing things on the go constantly, like when he made Leia "the other."

An independent dark side user. He wasn't part of any Force "team" at that point.

kek when was that ever established?

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Yeah no - lightning was a dark side force power. Lucas first thought it up for Empire and in it Luke was going to use lightning in the duel against Vader - showing he was going up to the edge of darkness and all that. Obviously that got cut but the idea ended up being used in Jedi instead.

Where you getting your information from btw? It's all just slightly wrong but there's bits and pieces of truth scattered throughout just with the details a bit smudged and borked - I'm curious where you're getting it all from. Pic is Lucas during the Empire Strikes Back story conferences with Leigh Brackett in late November/early December 1977

you're not making any sense, but that's typical for a low iq hater who can't even get his facts straight

old habits from his days of being toyed with by the jedi council
except he knows he's in power now so he can get away with whatever he wants

Again, you're a retard. Dark side =/= Sith.

If you think about it Vader was like Elon working for Doge. He made all the beaurocrats seethe and get defensive.

Prove the empreror was a Sith before TPM. You can't. You're trying to cover for Lucas' constant ambivalent changes.

Which is absolutely fine for his purpose in the story. The wildcard in Star Wars was a long lost (supposedly) order of magical space knights. Otherwise it's just rebels and an imperial army. Having a big bad mother fucker who was a space knight but evil is good enough.

What? No. You're just making shit up again. This is like you pointing to the early drafts of the scripts for proof and then showing you haven't actually read them. There is no such thing as some "independent dark side user" in any of Lucas's notes or scripts. There's no evidence of this whatsoever - you're just making shit up now.

And again that's Lucas back in 1977 talking about how using lightning over and over is a sign Luke was using the dark side. I don't know how much more proof you need.

Vader was a Sith and the apprentice to the emperor per the OT. thus the emperor was a Sith, his master. just because you have low iq and need everything spelled out to you doesn't mean lucas had nothing established or that what was established meant nothing

Vader is the guy head office sends when you start missing your quarterly targets. To fire a bunch of people to get the others to start doing their jobs.

After Yavin with the death most of the empires senior officers Vader is given active command over the military. Keep in mind Vader just sets mission objectives and priorities while leaving the actual implementation to expiranced officers.

Dark side =/= Sith

kek yeah, the DARK lords of the sith had nothing to do with the DARK side

the copium of this guy

The emperor is never related to the Sith in any capacity before TPM and "Darth Sidious." Dumbass. This is common knowledge in the fanbase. You're just proving you know nothing about the development of the series.

You don't even know what =/= means, clearly. Typical low IQ Star Wars faggot.

or when Vader called him his master in Empire and both discuss the force, and how they could make luke an asset of *their* side

haters like to bend themselves backwards and ignore all the details lucas established in his movies in a pathetic attempt to pretend that everything was done on the fly. unfortunately for them, these movies are pretty well documented and what's always been on screen can't be refuted

Exactly, case in point, when Luke asks Obi-Wan about how his Father died, there's just a slight moment of hesitation before lying and when Beru says "He's too much like his Father" Owen replies "That's what I'm afraid of...."

!!!FACT!!!

Low IQ cope

Kek. You Star Wars zoomers are just embarrassing.

In the original, intended drafts, Lucas said I was cute and wonderful and a good boy.

A general and a lord and the Emperor's apprentice but yeah. He was not Vice Emperor nor was he a superior to the other high ranking officers. More an equal.

you didn't even know what a sith was before the prequels. who are you to say that the emperor was never related to the sith? your argument doesn't hold any water

You get the sense in the conceptual phase of Star Wars, Vader probably wasn't thought of as being that big of a deal. He's a scary henchman of the Emperor, a former apprentice of Obi-Wan, and the man who killed Luke's father. He was probably conceptualized as a C tier villain, behind the Emperor, and the Imperial high command.
I guess what happened is the perfection of the suit and the voice catapulted Vader into being one of the break-out characters, and then audiences were given more Vader because they demanded more Vader. At some point he power crept up to being second in line for the throne and Luke's father, which at no point is suggested in the first movie.

exactly. even the EU writers were ignorant about what a Sith was, so much so that they turned them into an alien race. only lucas knew what a Sith was and evidently the emperor was the sith master all along since he was Vader's master

Vader is called a Sith Lord in the scripts and deleted scenes. You know nothing.

Vader is a sith lord. but nobody knew what a Sith was other than Darth Vader being a lord of the sith

since nobody but lucas knew what a sith was, there's no evidence that the emperor was never a sith to begin with

You are truly retarded

To be absolutely fair to the retard if you read the scripts to A New Hope there IS a really interesting evolution to the Emperor character. He is right that in the novelization (where he's called Palpatine and LITERALLY EVERY OTHER DETAIL matches what we eventually saw in the prequels) he is described as becoming a manipulated puppet after taking power. Whether that was a note from Lucas or a detail Alan Dean Foster came up with on his own I don't know but that is true.

Problem is that if you read through the scripts then you know when Vader introduces himself in the 2nd draft he talks about how he's "right hand to His Eminence Prince Espaa Valorum, the master of the Bogan" (Bogan is the name of the Dark Side in the 2nd draft.) It's not 100% clear whether that 'Prince" is the Emperor or not but it's still definitely a prince of some kind and clearly a Sith lord. And by the time you get up to the final draft Vader's just described as being "the right hand of the Emperor."

I mean yeah the Emperor went through multiple different iterations through each of the scripts but all the ideas that'd make up the final Emperor character were already there - in fact they seemingly where practically all in place in the 2nd draft by the looks of things. I dunno, I just find it maddening when people point to the early scripts for Star Wars as evidence that Lucas was a hack who was making shit up as he went along, because if you actually read them (which the guy you're arguing with has not) it's pretty much proof George did have most of this shit figured out fairly early on. It's bizarre, I swear Lucas is the only creative who gets shit on for engaging in the writing process.

This is common knowledge in the fanbase.

The Star Wars fanbase has made up so much stuff over the years I can't even keep up anymore.

I'm not that other guy.
I'm not bitching out Lucas for "making it up" as if that's a bad thing.

Yeah I agree. All I'm saying is that even if Lucas went back and forth on the details quite a bit when making A New Hope all the elements that would make up the final Sith Lord/Governor Palpatine Emperor existed from REALLY early on. Like we're talking January 1975 early - before Obi-Wan or Leia really existed. Even if Lucas had a slightly different concept about the Emperor shortly before finishing A New Hope making Palpatine Vader's master and a Sith lord is just a logical next step - literally all the elements existed already and he'd already made Vader the "Emperor's right hand." It's just the next logical step.

Anyway my main point is that the guy you're arguing with hasn't actually read the scripts that he's citing as proof of his dumb theories, that's all.

Vader never felt like a "cuck". He clearly had a very important post but it just didn't mesh directly with the military. Tarkin is able to bark orders to him, but almost never does, aside from telling him to not kill his subordinate during the meeting. Vader is free to act independently from Tarkin even during the defense of the Death Star, which is Tarkin's personal command. One would think that Tarkin would want Vader at his disposal during the battle, but Vader simply goes off and does his own thing. He's also free to murder other imperial officers when Tarkin isn't around to spare them.

So what I think is that Tarkin had ultimate authority on the Death Star, and the emperor told Vader to support him and listen to him, but both Vader and Tarkin know that arrangement can be easily reversed.

Wasn't orginal vission pupet emperor and oligarch running everything in shadow. Vader was part of that. Tarkin was another member. In empire strike back. They changed emperor being sith lord and in charge. Vader as his number 2 and pupil

New hope concept art mentions vader being powerful sith lord. Sith is concept that was there early on. Emperor being force user and sithlord are later devlopment

I wouldn't be surprised if maybe there was a version of Star Wars floating around in someone's head at some point where Luke kills Vader in the second movie.

Nah we actually know what Lucas's earliest plan was for sequels (and even a prequel.) This pic is from a conversation Lucas had with Alan Dean Foster (who was about to start writing the novelization hence why Lucas calls the sequels 'books' here) recorded on December 29th, 1975. This is a few days shy of Lucas finishing the 4th draft (which became A New Hope's shooting script) so keep in mind some stuff is still up in the air at this point.

Obviously the Leia-as-sister thing hadn't quite been worked out yet (though she does kiss Luke in the 2nd movie lol) but that's not too far off what ended up becoming Empire, Jedi and even Revenge of the Sith 30 years later. Anyway Vader was going to live and, most interestingly, he mentions he's gonna reveal who he is in the 2nd movie. But on the other hand he then mentions Luke's father getting killed in the same breath so I don't fucking know. It's actually really hard to figure out when Lucas came up with the Vader-as-father idea (long story short: he evolved out of Kane Starkiller, Annikin's tragic cyborg father from the first script but figuring out exactly when is a goddamn minefield) but it's interesting because we have Lucas on tape a couple of times talking about revealing who/what Vader is in the 2nd or 3rd movie well before he finally put pen to paper and wrote "I am your father," so if not Luke's father then who was Vader going to be revealed as originally? Food for thought

Prove the emperor was a Sith before TPM. You can't. You're trying to cover for Lucas' constant ambivalent changes.

Being a Sith is a title associated with a group and not a persons name, like Jedi, and probably don't want to go around telling people what they are and why.

It's just a designation to identify dark force users and keep in mind that Palpatine doesn't outright say to Anakin that he's a Sith but just someone who studied the dark side, so that's why Anakin identifies him as a Sith to Windu and uses that to barge their way into his office with is no evidence that he's a Sith, only Anakin's word that he is.

Then you have to look at it this way, Windu tries to arrest Palpatine but on what charge when they have nothing to tie him to any crimes?

Technically Palpatine is being persecuted because of his religion (which is what both Jedi and Sith are but on other ends of the spectrum) and then try to assassinate him to which he has the right to defend himself.

Also, what authority do the Jedi have that they can just arrest people and what if Palpatine didn't strike back?

Look at this clip.....

youtu.be/Bhy2YABlTBI?si=sre6Iy_RHZwnQuFX

Windu announces that he's under arrest while four Jedi unsheathe and brandish their Lightsabers to intimidation an outright threat of violence if he doesn't cooperate while not even telling him what charges he's being arrested for, only that they've been told that he studies the dark side which they believe gives them the authority to to take him into custody and nothing else.

Sure The Senate might put him on trial but I'm pretty sure that Palpatine is good at covering his tracks given how far he managed to get with no one suspecting him until he just blurts it out to some whiney emo faggot.

And what if Palpatine said that he wasn't a Sith and could twist it around that Anakin told Windu this to get a seat on the Jedi counsel?!?FACT!!!

It's like having a Muslim Warrior in the midst of a Christian Crusade hall and wondering who the fuck that guy is and why is he here.

The officers don't have a differing religion of their own. It's more like if there was a general staff meeting in the pentagon and the president's personal shaolin monk was sitting there too, saying that nukes are nothing compared to the laws of karma or whatever. There's a good copypasta about this, maybe someone has it?

Isn't he just there as the Emperor's enforcer or whatever? There's some deleted dialogue about it:
youtube.com/watch?v=8Erf6s_wYJk

Yeah ngl Vader sort of came off as someone like Heinrich Himmler: almost second in command, but that power isn’t formally there.