Zootopia 2 starts with the humiliation ritual

Antz also started with a therapy scene

judy hopps

PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP PLAP GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT GET PREGNANT PLAP PLAP PLAP

Therapy for what?

when are judy and nick going to make a family

Racism against reptiles.

Nick is canonically 32

Judy is 24

I wish I had a gf 8 years younger. But I'm still a virgin at 32.

oh myu god not my children's cartoons!

im 35 and went on a date with a 21 year old last week, its possible if you're chad

humiliation ritual.

This was such a dumbass forced meme.

Do Hollywood writers understand that not everyone goes to therapy?

Will they ever get together? That's the only reason I could care about this movie

Fertility counseling
They are having trouble conceiving due to their difference in species

no theyre different species obviously. its not an adult comedy movie like shrek where they'll make abomination babies as a joke like dragon and donkey

Just do the old Rocko rules where some of their babies are rabbits and some are foxes.

yes, that's why they're trying to shove it down your throat. you're not a good person if you don't take the pills.

Yeah but Antz was Jewish as fuck so it’s to be expected. Zootopia’s plot was that there are ewes behind the scenes trying to start a race war.

My wife is 7 years younger than me. It’s completely possible. For most people.

Anon Babble‘s fear of therapy is funny. Therapy helped me really learn about myself and now I feel much more unlocked as a human than I did pre-therapy

have fun in your basements fags

Nick’s Arby’s addiction.

paying someone thousands of dollars to do what you could do yourself for like 10 bucks with a solo acid trip

Gay

enjoy getting divorced in 5 years lmaoooooooo

Why would that happen?

I dated an 18-year-old when I was 27. It was pretty fun.
She's married now with a kid.

Because Nick doesn't want an open relationship

Ok, Moshe.

This dude can’t picture an apple.

just listen to the jewish "doctor" that's legally barred from giving actionable advice and financially incentivized to string you along forever

No, I don't think I will.

their target audience is disney adults with weird fetishes, whose daily dose of SSRIs could kill a teenager. no shit

When you reach your late 30s you kill yourself or you don't give a fuck. So don't worry, it won't hurt anymore one way or another.

You'll see.

Do you think they should only make characters and stories based on what's common with everyone?

this anon fav movie is terminator 4

This

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What the fuck was Jewish about Antz lol

yeah you were just trained to be more like a woman. men "learn about themselves" through action in the world, not by talking about their feelings in a room. the purpose of therapy on men is to feminize them.

Kids still watch Disney movies. Get off the internet.

starts with the humiliation ritual

Straight White Christian man here... I don't understand furfaggots and I am a faceblind Autist what's humiliating in that pic?

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Muzzled cuck

They don't fear therapy they fear their own mind and don't want to have someone force them to look inward to solve their problems. Im pretty certain that most anons outside of Anon Babble would be "unlocked" after a few sessions too.

It’s a Woody Allen movie, not directed by but starring. I meant Jewish in the classical sense, meaning containing and written by Jews, not the Anon Babble version where there’s interracial marriage and shit. I haven’t seen antz since it came out, the only scene I really remember is the starship troopers scene, so I can’t really speak to content.

men "learn about themselves" through action in the world

Lmao. What action in the world have you taken recently?

why are you on Anon Babble then?

I think normalizing the idea of "we need someone else to solve our problem for us" is a bad one

It was quite literally a Woody Allen movie
There exist very few things in the world that are more Jewish than Woody Allen. This is the dude who Filbert Turtle and Mort Goldman are based off of.

men "learn about themselves" through action in the world

I learned this in therapy unironically.

knocked out a drunk black guy

It's a comedy movie, I'm sure the scene will be comedic, calm down.

What action in the world have you taken recently?

I voted for Donald J. Trump.

Now cry, bitchnigger. Cry those precious tears of unfathomable sadness.

therapy fags need to pay someone in order to be self reflective

sad

unlocked

You’re the one with the cuck cage

Sex addiction

Thanks doc
I’m a volunteer firefighter and just had my second kid. What have you done recently?

good. but then why would you ever go there again?

They're financially incentized to make you feel like you've changed for the better. If you feel like you aren't making any progress anyone would just stop going. The way they string you along is that even when you do make a breakthrough there's always little shit that you can keep complaining about. Just stop there, easy.

When did everyone on Anon Babble become a based trad chad family man with a hot wife and awesome kids who beats people up and has big muscles? Seems like everyone you talk to on here now is living the dream and yet they still find time to post here 24/7.

Someone I know was saying how therapy isn’t something you go to, get fixed, and stop. You go to do maintenance on your mind. I replied with

what? You don’t have any friends?

Seems like everyone you talk to on here now is living the dream and yet they still find time to post here 24/7.

Don't let your dreams be memes, anon. Meme your dreams into reality.

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Anon Babble makes people into chads.
So what's your excuse?

Slay sis!

Well a lot of us started as weird teens on here but are now grown up. With the advent of smartphones you can post while shitting at work, while waiting for your kids to get off the bus, ect. It’s funny how I’ll start to get into it with somebody online and then go, “wait a second, I have better things to do”. Like the boondocks scene. Wait a minute, I’m white!

Because they're lying.

Being self reflective has its limits, assuming you're even doing it right. Your mind plays tricks on you and it's common to not realize coping mechanisms that are holding you back. Even with peak levels of self awareness it's also easy to miss how what you're doing affects others as well.

Your mind plays tricks on you

[Citation needed]

Everyone here knows Freud is a kike that wanted to fuck his mom while sucking a nigger dick. There is no such thing as id, ego, or super-ego. Your "mind" is not a separate entity; there is no homonculus. Fag.

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Almost like a review through trial and error. Certain things hold you back from taking the steps you need to take or just sends you down an undesirable path in general. Some nerd who studied psychology and can relate relevant info specifically catered to me is helpful.

So you restocked the inventory of people actually doing hard work and became a step-dad to your wifes second kid. How does this help?

Nick shot a man

Therapy can be whatever you want it to be, honestly. Personally I'm pretty comfortable in my own head and don't really need much "maintenance." To me it's useful just for identifying the problems in the first place and getting little tips for when I work through it myself.

Judy shot a kid. The department is doing their best to downplay it and say he was a threat and she feared for her life. They're sending her to counseling as a check box PR thing.

restock the inventory

No, it’s an all volunteer department. I go on calls. Why do you assume I’m the step dad? Your moms own failings or cuck fantasy? Love how you couldn’t say one thing you’ve done recently.

doooood drugs will open your mind and solve your problems

what do mean "how?"

FUCK YOU I CAN STOP ANY TIME

little tips

I prefer when they give me the whole thing.
I get what you’re saying, reasonable post anon

I dont know shit about Freud and dont care enough about the human mind to look up statistics. That's what I pay the nerd for. What I do know is that everyone perceives things differently and that my perceptions of things don't always reflect reality even at times where I'm convinced it is. That what I mean when I say the mind plays tricks on you.

I haven't done shit, just like you. And if I had anything to be proud of I certainly wouldnt be discussing it while seething in a Anon Babble thread.

been here since 2004, why leave now

Do you think they should only make characters and stories based on what's common with everyone?

nta but I think studios should only pay writers who have actual life experiences beyond being misgendered at Starbucks.

You only need to do acid once or twice to get the experience. It's not an addictive substance and I wouldn't recommend using it regularly.

I know you're the stepdad becaise in the real dad. Btw me and your wife still fuck. That's what I've done recently.

I’ve definitely realized I was doing something and gone on to look up how I can work on it. I guess that’s not enough for some people.
I’m the anon you originally replied to btw, the guy who hates Freud is not me. I don’t completely disagree with his sentiment though.

They want to influence everyone to go to therapy, that's why they do this.

I prefer when they give me the whole thing.

This is dangerous and where I start to side with the schizos here that fear therapy. Cause there's not really any objective solutions it all just theories at the end of the day. I take everything they say as an opinion and decide later whether I agree with it or not.

Imagine seething so hard you had to reply twice.

If you don't like my shitty forced meme, you must be jewish

Okay, then I guess jews are just better people for not having such terrible taste in memes. Didn't think that one through, did you?

What if you don't know what to look up? Most of the time I dont even realize there's a monkey on my back until someone points it out.

Well I was making a dick joke, but

I take everything they say as an opinion and decide later whether I agree with it or not.

Is actually a very reasonable position.

two different people can't notice what a huge fag I am

In therapy they call this cope

I'm 40 and my girlfriend is 26. We've been dating for two years. Just be yourself.

Abortion

You no able to feel monkey on back? Monkey big problem in my village. Steal fruit, many sctraches.

It makes no sense for them to go to couple's therapy post-Arby's

(and find girls with daddy issues and low self esteem)

You’d know gay boy
You’d know about multiple men and being a fag wouldn’t you?

In therapy they call this cope

What else did you learn in therapy lol

Zootopia fans give me the creeps, all of them. Am I the only one who feels this way?

They're all like that to varying degrees. If women had self-esteem then the cosmetics industry wouldn't exist.

this is how a mature adult with a totally awesome life has chosen to spend the last 40 minutes of his time on a Friday morning

yup
You’re here forever.
I do actually have to get going though, thanks for arguing with me anon.

I dont learn anything. However I do discover quite a bit.

Men would benefit from therapy but not in the sense that women think of it where you pay exorbitant amounts to talk to some woman in an office about how you feel.
Therapy for men and boys used to take the form of male-only private clubs, YMCAs, fraternal orders, and boy scouts, and those are all verboten now. Dudes need to start setting up mens' groups and ignore the feminists when they start screeching about how male-only spaces are sexist and they need to let women join.

The daddy issues part is probably true, TBF. But we do get along great. Funnily enough, our taste in films is extremely similar and what bonds us. That or I've just groomed her to my tastes...

Even the children?

Is your therapist a woman? Because if so, she sure taught you how to act like one.

Sure you do! You definitely won't be here LARPing all day.

Getting you're foreskin removed is a humiliation ritual

I barely have any interest in warhammer, but when all my friends get together we get a lot of shit off our chests.

Of course you get along great, you're both emotionally stunted used goods.

Monkey real light. Im too strong dont notice.

Don't be jelly, anon. There's someone out there for you too.

youre a woman because you made me upset!

Lets unpack that anon

Already found them and have been with them since we were 20. You are an embarrassment.

you vill trust zhe predators

I dunno, anon, you're the one mad at someone on an anonymous Bhutanese basket weaving forum.

That's the problem, there are no children ITT. Everyone in here is fully physically developed with an accompanying level of strength.

I have other unresolved issues and bad habits, but that's unrelated to my relationship. At least I'm not still dating at 40.

Its the only position. Its funny how the people strongly against therapy always put themselves in the position of them being forced to do whatever their therapist says. They can't force you to do or think anything unless you're just that weakminded.

You've watched too much True Detective.

I don't like that show.

Oh you meant on here? Yeah, I can see that. It’s also hard to determine if someone talking about a kids movie has only watched it because they have kids, or if it’s an adult just watching kids stuff. Like Bluey threads.
I was forced to go to therapy in high school and I remember telling the therapist I disagreed with her conclusions and she said something along the lines of, “that’s fine, I’m not saying you have to do this, I’m just giving you advice based on what I’m seeing and my experience.” I thought she was being kind of a bitch at the time, but that’s actually how therapy should be viewed. It’s a soft science, people are not controlled variables.

Based. Been dating a 20 year old for a year and I'm 35. It's not bad except the odd time she drops some massive zoomer speech.

unresolved issues and bad habits

Damn anon, have you considered going to therapy for this?

Women learn about themselves by doing therapy. Men learn about themselves by doing the rapey.

/thread

Nick spurts hot steamy cum in Judy's bunny pussy but they can't procreate because of animal racisms

whole film is an analogy for transplanting wombs

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Will they address it?

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I hate the way jews spam medication and therapy and panic attacks and other crazy made up leftgroid religious shit in everything.

Just because you've never had a panic attack doesn't mean they're not real. Shit sucks.

dating a child

Disgusting incel pedo.

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Yeah but it doesn’t need to be left right and centre in modern entertainment just because it exists.
Cope with it and get your shit together.
Nobody gives a shit about you and your retarded panic attack.

anon, you seem new here. we don't post like this. okay? when someone says something completely insane and demonstrably false, you don't disagree with them. you double down and take it further. okay? please keep your reddit shit on reddit

movies can't be about anything unless everyone has experienced it

???

Nobody gives a shit about you and your retarded panic attack.

Inside Out 2 made 1.69 billion dollars, sounds like you're the one coping.

them

you're a fag, aintcha?

"Someone" is a gender neutral word so I used a gender neutral pronoun to refer to it. It's grammar.

knows proper grammar

Faggot

you could just as easily have said "her" and still be correct. methinks you're a faggolio, given how passive aggressive your posts come off.

The person I was replying to could have said "some girl" instead. Your dad could have used a condom. We all could have done a lot of things differently.

You really think someone would do that? Just go on the internet and tell lies?

paying to be longhoused

I rather go insane and blow my brains out like a propah man than get lectured by a frumpy 37 year old with 3 cats who can't function without a handful of pills each morning

She will never lecture me with those asymmetrical, giant yet sleepy eyes, supported by those huge eyebrows.
Why do I live? Only to suffer?

i'm 32 and my girlfriend is 20. get in shape and get a good job and it's easy.

(and find girls with daddy issues and low self esteem)

still acting like a fag

it's ok, gayboy.

A coyote reached into his waistband at a traffic stop

That’s not what a therapist does.

Its not a gender studies class, if anything you'll be the one lecturing.

Lots of people don’t have friends. You’re on Anon Babble of all places, you should have realized that by now.

Be depressed

See Judy

Not depressed anymore

It's really that simple.

Why aren't people allowed to be happy after getting what they want. Why is it always more? More. MORE!

What bitter take, says a lot about you.

i am 24 and have never kissed a girl and cant get dates

You people are stealing my age bracket women from me
fuck you
no wonder I cant find any zoomer women, theyre all dating older dudes

BNNUY

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Gay ass response.

Shitty part is you know the jokes are probably gonna be a little less juicy compared to 1. Nothing like when Judy explained how "cute" is only a word rabbits can call each other and is inappropriate if other animals call them that.

babies are rabbits and some are foxes

Nightmare fuel. What happens if they get hungry?

Judy shot a black kid at Arby's and now they can't conceive children because of their racist abortion

They go to Arbys.

It's a good thing furries don't care about age gaps or age of consent when it involves animals otherwise this would be pretty problematic. Or if it involves gay men but that doesn't apply here

You don't want those girls, they're already ran through by the time they start dating old men.

Bruh they going to make the abortion comic look less humililating for Nick

lol I bet your 401k thanks you

Women suppose to be young 20-27 at best when they can have children. Men should be 35+ when they have a stable job and a house. Its very natural

Will there be more pig girls?

No because they are disgusting and no one likes them.

Interracial sex

you didn't read the sequel comics?

Yes because they’re cute and popular.

men

still single at 35

You mean failures?

chuds now think therapy is woke or something

Don't you get tired of whining about everything

Disney doesn't to straight romance, bro.
Either lesbians or platonic friends like in Moana or Wreck it Ralph

Who was that guy who made all those low detail comedic lewd comics of Judy and Nick and posted them over on Anon Babble? Was that Shane Frost? I remember it kind of looking like his style.

20

Their ovaries are done by that point

have a stable job and a house

Imagine falling for the tradcuck provider propaganda, when the girls you will give your house and money to have been speared by miles and miles of cock who didn't have to pay a dime

Having a stable job and a house benfits you too.

Women prefer older men, especially if they are independent (own place, own car, good job). Its more important for them than youth or childhood friendship you had with your best girl

there are no successfull men before or after college. Around 30+ when they get their career fixed

When youre 40+ with own house and a garden, you suppose to pick up virgins around 18-20 who comes from conservative houses and dont fuck niggers

Absolutely pathetic self report.

What were conservatives taught that makes them hate therapy so much? Where does it come from? Do they think it takes people away from church or something?

All therapists are leftists and hate conservatives. Why shouldn't we hate what hates us?

I still remember getting out of college, getting my first real job, and realizing this. Makes total sense, honestly. Literally every dating couple in that workplace was a 30-35 guy and a 22-25 girl

Im sorry my dad didn't already owned 5 business when i grew up

I don't need to pay some broad a thousand dollars a week to tell me my Y chromosome is bad and I need to hate myself more in order to stop being depressed.

Judy would NOT do that

Should had been obvious when femoids spend their 20's writing fanfics about Q or Pickard instead younger heroes. Or when Beetlejuice & Lydia were their top 3 shipping couples along with Buffy and Angel

So who was actually in the wrong here?

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It's always been like this. Women want a daddy figure more than an equal partnership regardless of what they say. If you're already 24 then don't bother trying to find a girl your own age. You should focus on making money and finding a gf who's like 18 or 19. You're never going to have that innocent, storybook romance at this point. That sort of thing only happened because people used to get married fresh out of high school or college. If you didn't find your wife while you were still in school, then you missed your chance at a "traditional" marriage. Just accept it and become a cradle robber like the rest of us.

t. 35 dating a 22 year old

Glad to see you've carried on the family tradition of accomplishing absolutely nothing.

what animals would play the niggs?

Nick and Judy after several months of therapy.

I was the only one who did. Father was a mechanic, mother stayed at home, brothers both gave up on college after a year. I was the only one who finshed Biology and became a microbiologist

Most guys gotta spend some years grinding in their 20s so that they can accumulate wealth, get a promotion or two, and get their shit together in order to be attractive dating prospects. He's absolutely right and you're either a clueless woman or rich faggot who was born with silver spoon in hand.

I still remember seeing this movie at the theater with my gf at the time and how there was some black dude absolutely losing his shit at this part

you can't be an attractive dating prospect in your 20s

This is something an ugly failure would say to cope.

Is that supposed to be some sort of joke?

Ugly yes, failure no
Because most guys are ugly and that's why we gotta grind

Anon Babble has literally always been there. If you're autistic and been on this website for years it's your own damn fault that you're still fat.

35 dating a 22 year old

God, you’re sick. Is she still in COLLEGE? One day, she’ll accuse you of grooming and rape, and she’ll be right to hate you.
Just kidding. 34 and 23 reporting in

implying Anon Babble is the home of well-adjusted successful men

Judy looks good either way

Says here you talk like a fag and shit's all retarded.

Imagine being a criminal pickpocket who get cought and now she sits on your back trying to to cuff you and you feel her ass through her pants

They should add a human man to the movie

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Nick is the older White man allegory main character

Judy is the attractive younger girl

There is no way they'll ever get them together. Nick going to get cucked like Chip. And they will imply Judy has a crush on some other female character

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Zootopia fans would riot.

I can't believe they made this comic canon.

Was Moana 2 any good? I feel like Disney is making all sequels as safe and sterile as fuck. Very unlikely they will even HINT at romantic subplot with shipping moments let alone give it a real focus. Its going to be another Maui/Moana and Ralph/Venellope boring sequel

Total scaly destruction.

Maybe its not a therapy but a lawyer planning their divorce

Is this an edit?
I thought he was thinking Arby's

get out of my head Charles!

what if they make it woke

What if you suck cock till you die?

that wont stop them from making half of the movie be about tranny animals

main character is an obnoxious jew who spends the ENTIRE movie complaining about how he has to work for a living

What if you used anger to live rent free in peoples heads? lmao.

Quinta Brunson is so fucking hot and perfect
Threesome with her and Ayo Edibiri
Real ones know

Disney will probably double and triple effort to comb through the script to remove anything that could offend MAGA or China. The downside is that it will most likely going to be a boring slog like the shorts. No interesting premise, no romance, no death or even misgendering. There will never be a time they would consider the original script for Zootopia where predators were treated as second category citizens and had to wear collars

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just slap her when she does that

How many hours per day do you spend getting mad about things you made up in your own head?

The one where nick has a daughter and fucks her and his mother too alongside Judy?

Did you like the new Snow White?

Nah I remember in one they were sitting in their cop car staking out a criminal and Judy is heat or something and Nick is going crazy from her pheromones. It was mostly played for laughs.

link to whatever you're describing??

You have no respect for the masters.

zoomer speech

About what topic usually?

they will most likely fumble the bag and do something boring like moana 2

They're a couple now? I thought they were just friends. This is even more blunt propaganda than Elemental, and miscengenation is literally fatal in that universe

No, because you need MONEY to afford medical help to begin with.

Just say what everyone already agrees with and have men only spaces to not worry about hurting feelings about the fairer sex in private.

yeah well my generation's women spent their 20s fucking around and being fat. I'm not going to date an obese 34-year-old who spent her 20s rejecting any man who would've made a good husband.

Just date Gen Alpha girls. Really there needs to be sex-selective abortions so future generations are like 60% female

female mindset. get good.

they're trying to normalize therapy because it's another vehicle for propaganda.

Nice, that's the guy
What's his name?

Just date Gen Alpha girls.

why don't you have a seat over here

Nick wants rabbit ass but all he gets is a rabbit pegging his ass to climax.

you're here forever

lmao. this brief visit has been nice. guess i'll gtfo for a bit too.

Bucktooth BJs 6

KEK

I bet the Sopranos moved more people into therapy and onto [typical unnecessary] meds than any advertising ever has.

living under late-stage capitalism as a furry artist

i am 24 and have never kissed a girl and cant get dates

If you're ugly, then fix it or learn to suffer peacefully. If a woman has never approached you or hit on you, then you're likely ugly.

Not necessarily. Women that age are fairly easy. They're trainable. It's kind of fun, but also feels a bit dirty, due to how easy they are to manipulate. For me, it feels wrong.

This is what we know so far. Looks like Rich Moore and Byron Howard are not writers in the sequel, and there is only one writer now who also wrote Moana 1 and 2 and worked on Zootopia 1.

Seems its going to be mostly a slop generic story with evil asian snakes

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It's part of the same comic.

The logical male brain is wrong and is a threat to the female brain, therefore it must be shut down and gas lit into submission

The estrogen is working well.

this post right here, officer

Judy’s jacket looks way too plain.

Women that age are fairly easy

The ones with daddy issues and low self esteem, yes. The rest wouldn't give you the time of day.

nigger, you're still here, with us
what exactly do you think changed

Is it mandatory for therapists to teach you all this idea of "person I don't like must be living in a basement"?
I'm actually offended that you think this will btfo your detractors

Anon, Anon Babble is a place for financially successful alphas who pound zoomer puss on the daily. Get with the times.

maybe because they're polarizing

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Weaver wasn't funny when he was a horsefucker and he isn't funny now

12 year olds found Anon Babble

Why does the snake look voiced by awkwafina

Because it doesn't and it isn't.

Judy no longer wears the sock thingies

It’s fapping time

nah it does tho

Judy no longer wears her cute stirrups

this is a tragedy and we should all protest

Well it isn't and it still doesn't.

Anon Babble is where all the regular homosexuals go cause Anon Babble is nothing but trannies now

Anyone who has kids now will have betas.

14 was a normal age for a girl to start having sex and marry throughout most history untill ZOG redefined everything, one of the ploys of lowering white birth rates

I'm 52 and pounding a 18 year old bro keep hustling keep grinding anything is possible dont give up

Is the bunny trying to jerk him off?

I'm 52 and pounding a 18 year old bro

You're a faggot, no one thinks you are cool.

spbp

Would you trust him?

cuts her clit off

I want bare bunny feet not some halfway shit.

complaining today too huh virgin? thought you said this place was too normie infested to complain about this shit anymore?

Any predators

I'd check his fox prostrate yes.

id watch it

your oc

its literally just judy hopps

Snake is naked?

Hopefully the pig cop is in it

Pig cop?

In the first movie there is a pig police officer who is probably also the pig girl at the DMV

Judy better get coiled up and squeezed by that snek at some part in the movie

As soon as anons start posturing about their life I just leave. I don't care to complain about my life or brag about it. I've had enough of that feels era back in 2018 where everybody was posting w0jaks and bitching all the time.

I hit 28, got married, now I care about a stable career over risky adventures. I feel locked into society, when you're young you compare yourself to others too much, but if you looked at the leaderboards of society we're all firmly in the middle and that's great. I've seen what being even close to the bottom looks like and it makes me happy to be of sound mind and body with opportunities.

When you grow up you stop dreaming out over your chin size and start being thankful for having 2 arms a brain and legs to do shit with.

Guess who's back...
Back again...

Damn every thread is normalfag blogposting. Even in the furry thread

As soon as anons start posturing about their life I just leave

starts posturing about his life halway through the post

source?

you really believe them on a furry thread on a friday night lol

i don't think the implication of that post was that he believed them

it was revealed to me

i mean source on the boar girl

Hooking up with fat trannyfags to suck their dick is not "a date". Go back to Anon Babble and stay there.

oh sorry.
my pig princess, it's a H-game, I think it's free (for the early chapters at least)

based, thank you
can you date the boar girl?

I don't think it's a dating game.
there's some scene with her.
sadly I don't think the author want to let you have an different ending/main relationship with anyone other than the pig princess (which is a shame)