Lucas now lies that he always envisioned Vader to be Anakin but he clearly wasn’t in New Hope...

Question

Lucas now lies that he always envisioned Vader to be Anakin but he clearly wasn’t in New Hope...

Lucas now lies that he always envisioned Vader to be Anakin but he clearly wasn’t in New Hope. After the movie Lucas released bios for the characters

Anakin and Obi Wan were the same age and best friends. Obi Wan was training Vader. If Vader had another identity at the time is unclear. Emperor used Vader to infiltrate the Jedi along with his men and they end up killing all of them ending with Vader killing Anakin.

I would imagine has gone this route we’d learned something happened to whoever Vader was, perhaps a accident that leaves him almost dead and him blames Jedi and Anakin for it

*sigh*
Go watch the Mr. Plinkett reviews.

You don't have to imagine anything. You can read the drafts on the World Wide Web.

How about you watch your mother suck my cock.

They were never fully fleshed out

retconned

people don't know what words mean anymore

It actually was reconned because it went against first movie. Obi Wan taking about Lucas father like they were friends not teacher and student. Telling Luke that Vader killed his father. Whole “well, uh, I mean your dad died and he become. dee so he was murder red by Vader”

Who cares

not a retcon, from a certain point of view its true and Luke wasnt ready to know the truth. A retcon would make it impossible to be true

Why are you even here?

Retcon:

(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency:

"we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu"

Vader being Luke's father is a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events and facilitated a dramatic plot shift.

Saying a character murdered your dad and then completely backtracking on its recon as close as you can get. “Well Harry, Voldemort murdered your parents. Actually he’s your dad and I meant he murdered himself in a figurative way…and your mom because she was kind of a bitch”

got it, so if the viewer is not given the full explanation and backstory of every character when they are introduced, every new piece of information that is later given is a retcon

Lucas early on said there was a twist on who the Emperor was going to be. I guarantee it was going to be Anakin. And having Rey being a Palatine was a play on that

If new information contradicts what was already established, yes.

Have you actually read them? They're insanely fleshed out.

LUKE

I am the son of Annikin Starkiller.

(The Star Wars, third draft, 1975)

Luke actually knew him, chatted to him about the Clone Wars. He read Ben Kenobi's war diaries about their time together.
Darth Vader is just some other guy, the Dark Lord of the Sith.

it doesnt, from a certain point of view

NTA but according to you then nothing is ever a retcon, because we are never given the full explanation and backstory of every character when they are introduced

He had all sorts of different visions for the characters, and even never intended for this to be a trilogy, let alone a franchise. It was supposed to be a single sci fi move. The "Episode IX" in the prologue was just a homage to old sci fi serials.
The RLM consensus was he was surrounded by more experienced people unafraid to push back on bad ideas who helped take his vision and turn it into a coherent story for A New Hope.
They juxtapose this theory with him making The Phantom Menace twenty years later as a legend surrounded by sycophants afraid to speak up.

Completely bullshit. They hadn’t planed on Vader being Luke father until final drafts of Empire. Lucas even talked about when it happened

I said if it makes the previous information impossible to be true then its a retcon

Proof Starkiller is canon

The 'writing it in, to undo/explain-away the contradiction' part IS the retcon, sure.

starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yoda's_second_lightsaber
Great new canon there, Disney.

You can't retcon something that was never in a movie to begin with. If you ever create something like a movie or a game, you'll realize shit gets made up on the fly and nothing is sacred, as long as it makes the story interesting.

Exactly. Luke's dad was Annikin Starkiller, not Darth Vader. From an objective point of view.

Yeah that's just a clickbait article, I'm skim-reading it and it's just bullshit. If you do the actual reading it's actually really hard to pinpoint the exact moment Lucas decided to merge Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker (or rather Annikin Starkiller, "the Starkiller," Akira Valour or, if we go all the way back, Kane Starkiller) together. It honestly might've happened when he was writing A New Hope albeit towards the end of the process (probably while writing either the 3rd or 4th and final draft but no earlier.)

But then again it might've happened in the early stages of drafting Empire. It's just that the whole "tragic, cyborg Jedi father who's more machine than man" concept existed almost right from the start - originally in the form of Kane Starkiller from the original script. And by the end of the writing process (and I'm simplifying things down a lot here for the sake of brevity) Vader had become the cyborg and Luke's father was nowhere to be seen. It's honestly not out of the question that Lucas had the idea (the IDEA at the very least) while writing the first movie but hey, I might be wrong. But even if that is wrong all the elements that would make up the final Vader-as-father character already existed, it wouldn't be some big retcon moreso it was just a question of Lucas putting all the pieces in the correct sequence, that's all. And he nearly had put all the pieces in place from the beginning with Kane Starkiller.

Vader is Persian for father. If Darth Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's father from the start that's a pretty weird coincidence.

The previous info is never impossible though, if you're just a allowed to invent whatever you like after the fact. By your logic Palpatine being resurrected in ROS is not a retcon

It was during second draft of Empire. I can’t find article but Lucas wanted a big twist and had some script writer buddy over for diner and he suggested making Vader his dad

No? The I am your father line was introduced in the 2nd draft of Empire that George Lucas wrote. We even have George's hand-written page where he first wrote it. (This is page 1, I'll post page 2 after)

And anyway the whole "the first draft written by Leigh Brackett proves Anakin and Vader were separate characters" thing seems to be bullshit. Yeah Luke's father appears as a ghost (which does imply that they're separate characters) but we have the transcript of the story conferences now - Lucas DIDN'T tell her to include that scene, that seems to be an invention of Brackett's alone. In fact the only thing Lucas told her was that he was going to reveal who Vader really was in the 3rd movie and he left it at that. And if not Luke's father then who was Vader going to be revealed as then?

And here's page 2

Not necessarily - and I know which thing you're remembering but you've been clickbaited again. That anecdote was originally from Howard Kazanjian's book but the clickbait article removed the context that author J.W. Rinzler added (about how the character had originally been a cyborg father and it's likely Lucas had been mulling over the idea far earlier.) Give me a second I'll find the real quote for you.

inverse.com/entertainment/darth-vader-luke-father-joke-marcia-lucas

As described by Marica Lucas in Icons Unearthed, George Lucas was struggling to come up with some kind of big twist for Empire’s third act. While stuck, Marcia and George invited screenwriters Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz over for dinner. The couple had worked with George Lucas before, including an uncredited rewrite of A New Hope. When Lucas described his struggles with the Empire story, Huyck joked, “You can always make Darth Vader Luke’s father.”

The interview where she says this is in "Icons Unearthed: Star Wars", if you can find it.

Based lore-knower. Your paraforce is strong.

This sounds like bullshit.

Regardless if Lucas came up with it on his own is irrelevant. He didn’t merge the two until Empire. New Hope presented them as two separate characters with zero hint they were the same. Obi Wan talks about Anakin as friends, not student teacher. Does not mention he trained him. Tells Luke that Vader murdered his dad and then they have to do a major ass pull scene of Obi Wan in ROTJ on what he meant.

so empire was saved in the edit by a woman too, Maria.

Maria

No, it was Marica. Not to be confused with Marcia.

Yeah found it. Here you go. Notice how the added context got removed? And besides we're trusting that Marcia Lucas's memory is completely accurate here too - not saying she's lying or anything but pretty much everyone involved with Star Wars's memories tend to be a bit warped (including George's) Here you go you two:
Oh and this book (Howard Kazanjian A Producer's Life by J.W. Rinzler) came out BEFORE Icons Unearthed which is a rather shoddy little Vice documentary. I mean it's cool that they got some new interviews with Marcia Lucas but it's not the best source. I trust J.W. Rinzler's work WAY more than some Vice hacks, seriously he is (or was - RIP) possibly the most knowledable person on the planet about the development of Star Wars as he'd been Lucasfilm's official historian for over a decade.

Yeah but we've got a couple of quotes from him as early as December 1975 where he was talking about revealing Vader's identity in either the 2nd or 3rd film. I mean admittedly here he then talks about Luke's father getting killed in the next breath but if not the father then who was Vader going to be revealed as then? I'm serious

(Oh just read the bits about Sequels at the bottom of the page)

Lol - I love how we've got to the point with that myth that we're just erasing Paul Hirch too.

This is terrible writing. They should scrap all the Skywalker/Palpatine characters and build on The Acolyte S1. Multiple spin-offs, no toxic masculinity, everyone represented (obviously excluding chuds). Make Star Wars better.

Anyone read this? Was based off George's original screenplay and notes.

If he intended them to be the same he is a shit writer, You have to put the hints out early and where doesn’t construct what laid out or the twist comes off as nothing cut a massive ass pull. Example in Empire when Luke cuts Vader’s head off and sees his own face.

There arguably IS a hint though - but it's in the 3rd draft not the 4th draft (which is the shooting script.) 3rd draft of Star Wars is the first version of the script that plot-wise matches A New Hope but it's a different script with alternate scenes and dialogue and a handful of differences (2nd act where they're breaking the princess out takes place on Cloud City still, Tarkin doesn't exist yet and so on.)

Anyway this is what Vader says the first time he senses Luke during the space battle. This got completely removed in the 4th draft but here it is. Hey it might not be foreshadowing that he's Luke's father but it certainly seems like it.

Tolkien retconned the FUCK out of a one-off magic ring and some gremlin guy, everyone thinks he's a fantastic writer who was laying seeds for decades to come.

I'd personally recommend reading the actual script instead - there are certain prose passages in the script that are more obviously stuff he'd reuse in later movies(which is really interesting) that don't really translate over to comic book form. And I really don't get why Alien Han Solo is drawn like Swamp Thing. Just... why? It is neat though and if you don't want to read the script itself it's a fine alternative but I don't get why you wouldn't just read the script

May the Ashla be with you (and not the Bogan - lol)

How is it a retcon if it was never established canon in the first place??

I’m not retconning my day if I decide to get pizza instead of pasta

Is it true Tolkien heavily revised The Hobbit to do that?

I don't think they necessarily contradict each other here, as that image has Marcia tell basically the same story about them joking about Vader. In his rough drafts for the first movie he had the idea about cyborgs with both Ben and Kane which he then used for Vader, but that doesn't mean him being Luke's father carried over though it could have been in the back of his mind. Cut back to that dinner and it allowed the cogs to spin in his head and he connected the dots that gave Luke a cyborg father again, except instead of Kane it was Vader.

Interesting to see Lucas refer to prequels as Obi-Wan's backstory, given how fucking boring the prequels ended up making Obi-Wan.

ringgame.net/riddles.html

Maybe the idea for for Anakin was originally to have been cucked by Vader and not have them be the same character.

George Lucas never made Andor so his work is inferior Andor mogs the Prequels and the Original Trilogy

Oh sure - I'm just saying that the clickbait version of that always eliminates the added context that Rinzler gave it. The other problem is that's assuming Marcia Lucas's memory is 100% accurate - I'm not saying she's lying or anything but time and memory can do funny things and the memories of virtually everyone involved with Star Wars have drifted quite a bit over the years.

Real quick example: y'know the story of how Harrison Ford improvised the "I love you/I know" line? How the line in the script was "I love you/I love you too" and how they tried it shot it that way multiple times until eventually Harrison improvised "I know" on the spot? Here's a clip from Empire of Dreams to refresh your memory if not:
youtu.be/YT1wUWPrJaQ?t=5865

Yeah, other than the fact that Harrison came up with the line - none of that is true. The line was never "I love you too" in the script, it was actually:

LEIA:… I love you. I couldn’t tell you before, but it’s true.

HAN: Just remember that, ’cause I’ll be back.

And no, Harrison Ford came up with it that morning while he and Kershner were blocking the scene out. Kershner had a live mic on him that day recording everything he said. Pic is a transcript of the exact moment Ford came up with the line. Cool huh? But they never shot take after take, and the line was never "I love you too." Both Ford and Kershner are telling complete fictions in that clip. And they're not lying or assholes or anything - their memories are just flat-out wrong 20+ years after the fact.

So that's why I'd take Marcia's story with a slight grain of salt cause maybe some of it's true but it's quite likely her memories drifted a bit in the last 50 years - I'd want a 2nd source for that story at the very least.

Indarasting.

It's funny that militant Lucas fags hate on Disney for making shit up on the go, when that is exactly how Lucas himself made Star Wars. Anakin wasn't Vader, Leia wasn't the "other" nor Luke's sister, the Emperor wasn't a Force user or Vader's master or a Sith, etc.

Yeah everyone in Northern Europe knew Vader was his OR Leias father in a new hope (they didn’t know they were twins or course)

Father in German is Vater, in Scandinavian it’s fader

My dad (a swede) said that when new hope came out everyone called him Darth Daddy, and dad thought it was Leias dad right away.

Oh and here's the real line in the script if you want more proof. The line was never "I love you/I love you too" Harrison Ford legit doesn't remember

Ehhh... I'll defend Lucas on a ton of stuff but no. Darth Vader was originally a corruption of "Dark Water" not Dark Father. The fact that it also sounded like Father was a happy accident that Lucas himself leaned into over the years

I still maintain that the plot twist (while iconic) was dumb and retroactively ruined shit. Also, Vader loses a lot of his swag in ROTJ as now he’s just some flunky to the emperor.

It's truly awful, it's amazing that we got what we did when you read the absolute shit that are the early drafts of Star Wars. And you can see so many things that were cut from early drafts resurface in the prequels.